Working With Dinosaurs - A Q&A with Filmmakers Tony & James Pinto
At Dinosaur Trips, we’re not just interested in dinosaurs and prehistoric life, we’re also interested in the history of paleontology, the people who work in dinosaur museums, and the folks across generations who have shaped our understanding and appreciation for prehistoric life, as well as the incredible adventures that are tied to some of the most exciting discoveries in paleontology history.
Which begs the question: How do you get one of these dinosaur jobs anyway?
To learn more, Dinosaur Trips founder & director Zach Vanasse is chatting with people from all across the paleontology spectrum to learn more about what it’s like working in this riveting field.
For this edition of ‘Working With Dinosaurs,’ Zach got to talk to the father-son duo of Tony and James Pinto, the documentary filmmakers behind ‘Why Dinosaurs?’
Zach Vanasse: Let’s start things off with your respective relationships with dinosaurs and paleontology. Where did this all start?
Tony Pinto: You want to start, James?
James Pinto: Sure. So I was among the dino kids when I was five or six. I just started reading books and watching documentaries, drawing and really getting into dinosaurs. Just thinking about dinosaurs and extinct animals. As time went on, I was trying to find any outlet through which I could express that interest. If there was ever an art project at school, I would somehow turn it into being about dinosaurs.
Middle school was the first time I got to do a bigger project, in a scientific sense, with dinosaurs. I wasn’t really aware of what was and was not considered experimental dinosaur science. So I actually had old fashioned methods, without really realizing it. I gravitated towards geochemistry.
My first project was doing isotope geochemistry on Spinosaurus teeth because they’re relatively easy to get ahold of commercially. I talked with a bunch of people in stable isotope labs, kind of begging them to let me use their equipment. Eventually people at UC Santa Cruz got back to me and were willing to humor a 13 year old enough to run some samples for him.
And so in telling my dad about it, he was like he’s “Oh no, we’ve got to go there. We’ve got to do it.” And so we did a little trip up there to UC Santa Cruz to process the samples myself, which was fun. And I got some shaky results out of that data (laughs).
The thing that complicated it was just that we didn’t have good provenance information. Because the teeth were purchased, we didn’t know exactly what rocks they came from. But we were able to get some values out of them that showed a pretty high variance compared to our control animals, which was sort of interesting in itself. It demonstrated that Spinosaurus had this variable sort of isotope geochemistry based on whether it was spending more time in freshwater or saltwater. So that was the first big research type thing I did and it really got me hooked into that world.
And so I started doing more stuff related to dinosaur science. I did some field work with a group that went out into South Dakota and Wyoming. I started volunteering for the La Brea Tar Pits in high school. I would just schlep over there, like two and a half hours each way on a bus and trains over into Hollywood.
A young James Pinto at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles
I first helped as a docent, then I helped them as a preparator. At about that same time I started talking with my dad about how we’d always kind of wanted to make some sort of video together, because he is a filmmaker.
I was like, “What if we did a little documentary about paleontology? That’d be kind of interesting. Just looking at early examples of dinosaur culture and the relationship between the actual science of dinosaur paleontology and then pop culture works that are inspired by it, and how those things feed each other.”
I’d say that was the beginning of when we shifted into documentary stuff. Since then, I’ve had a big research career, mostly not focusing on dinosaurs, but that’s a whole other story.
And Tony, was this passion or interest something you stoked or did James come to it on his own, and you just decided, yeah let me encourage this in him?
Tony: I think he came to it on his own. You know, there’s a lot of people in our family that brought him to museums and bought him the dinosaur pajamas. And he just became the dinosaur kid, you know. It was this self-fulfilling prophecy.
For me, it was a little bit different of an introduction to dinosaurs and paleontology. I had wanted to be in video or film, and I really liked animation. And when Walking with Dinosaurs came out, that just kind of blew my mind, that combination of live action plates and the CGI.
Tony Pinto filming on a hillside at the Wyoming Dinosaur Center
I had a job that wasn’t super creative and had nothing to do with dinosaurs. And then we started a video production company. And all the while I was a dad encouraging James to pursue this stuff and, luckily, filming stuff along the way; home movie style. And then, at one point, when James was 14 years old, he wanted to go digging for dinosaurs, going out into the badlands.
And seeing some of these folks that were avocational paleontologists and doing this for fun. I was like, “Hey, this could be an interesting documentary.” And it kind of just started at that point for me. This was like seven years ago.
When did it become apparent that you were making a proper documentary here, and not just kind of playing in this space a little bit? When did the project kind of cement itself for you both?
James: I don’t think there was really a single moment. It sort of felt like there was just a point where we looked back and realized things had gotten out of hand (laughs).
But the initial sort of premise was basically to take this very history-focused approach of interviewing paleontologists to some degree, but also art historians – and seeing how the Crystal Palace dinosaurs, and the first stop motion movies, the early paleo art – and all these things changed through time with the continuing and sometimes reciprocal effort of science getting inspired by that media. And that element is definitely still in the final product to some extent. We spent a lot of time talking about each one of those things and later things like Jurassic Park, which is the most recent major work to change dinosaurs in the public consciousness.
And then a bunch of extra things got glommed onto the project, partially because we were having all these opportunities to work with museums and paleontologists who were more welcoming than we had expected, given the fact that we were just cold emailing them and it was just a kid and his dad and some cameras.
We wanted to do this thing where we’re out in the field for a day to help excavate a bone. You know, everything from the excavation, to the preparation, to the storage, to the research analysis, to the research writing, to the science communication. We spend a little bit of time talking about every one of those steps.
James Pinto & Paleontologist Jessica Lippincott excavating a sauropod dinosaur tail bone
Because I think that’s the part that a lot of other dinosaur documentaries just sort of skip over; like they will literally have the moment of a paleontologist finds the bone in the dirt, and then that transitions to a CGI reconstruction of the full, finished dinosaur. And you’re like, “Wait what? There were years in between those two points.” So that’s something that we decided to focus on as well.
But yeah, there was no one moment. It just gradually snowballed until we had to look back at what we had done and realized that we were dealing with something bigger.
Tony: Yeah, we also wanted to show the different jobs in paleontology. It’s not just Indiana Jones, you know, a character with a fedora going out and finding a T. rex. There’s a lot more to it when it comes to collections, prep work, research, curation, and all that stuff.
James: Yeah, every one of those steps is often done by a different person.
One thing James mentioned there that I thought was interesting – and has been my experience as well coming at all of this paleontology stuff while my professional background is in travel – is that when I first started reaching out to paleontologists with this idea that we want to help bring people on digs, and we want to have paleontologist experts available to our guests throughout the trips, I wasn’t sure if they were going to be receptive to the idea at all. Were they going to be mad at me, or frustrated that I wanted to bring tourism into the equation?
And I encountered the same thing you guys have, which is that paleontologists love talking about this stuff and will absolutely embrace the opportunity to talk about their passion; especially to non-paleo people, in order to bring it to the general public.
There is a hunger from the paleontology-side of the equation to communicate their love of dinosaurs and paleontology. I think that’s why your film is so special. You’re looking to speak to that passion. Let’s explain how this whole world of paleontology exists beyond, just what people might know about it from the movies or from the last time they were interested in this stuff, when they were like nine years old.
Tony: I see science communication really evolving. For all the people that say “there’s good and bad to social media,” I think some of the good is science communication. Being able to be out in the field and see what’s happening, or be in the lab, or just have people constantly talking about this stuff in an accessible way versus the way it was before, where you published a paper and people had to go read the paper and then you had to make the leap, you know, in your mind.
And we tried to walk that line with our film. We wanted to be scientifically accurate, but we also didn’t want to put people to sleep with 100 black and white photos of the history of paleontology. We move along pretty quickly through that stuff in order to keep people’s attention. We’re competing with TikTok and Instagram.
Now that the film is out there and you’ve had the chance to take it to some film festivals, what’s the reception been like from the world of paleontology, and from the general public?
Tony & James Pinto at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles
James: I think it’s been interesting to see how much it does vary. I think it is really impactful for young, aspiring paleontologists in particular. It’s been valuable for them to see how many possibilities there are for them, and it makes that whole realm of paleontology a little bit more approachable.
For the general public, one thing we keep hearing is like “I was so into dinosaurs when I was 12 years old and I never thought about it again, but this was just such a great reminder of this passion of mine that I had forgotten about!”
Tony: Yeah, I would add that there are parents who come up to me and are moved by the father-son dynamic. While it’s not totally in the forefront of the film, it is a thread that runs through the movie. And so that’s really neat, when people are inspired to go out and do stuff with their kids.
As James said, the young, aspiring paleontologists who are fist pumping during the movie; like that just gets me really excited.
And then anytime one of these seasoned paleontologists says “good job,” it really just feels like we found the right balance of science and entertainment. It was pretty exciting when Phil Currie walked up to James after an early test screening at the Tyrrell Museum and said; “Brilliant.”
And maybe he was being kind, but he seemed to genuinely like the film. He’s a good guy anyway, but yeah, it feels good.
Was there something in the journey of making this documentary that stood out for you guys? And as a second piece to that question; is there a particular moment in the film that is a favourite?
Tony: The first question is easy. Just having this connection with James because of a shared interest. Just to be able to travel and hang out and talk about this stuff, probably even more than he wanted to at times (laughs). As a parent, you’re looking for common ground.
As far as favourite moments go, that Borealopelta fossil up at the Royal Tyrrell Museum just blew my mind. The first time I saw that, you know, coming into the whole field of paleontology as a pretty blank slate, I was like: “How did I never see that before?”
And now I want people to see it! So that kind of thing is really, really cool.
James: I think, honestly, I would say that looking back on it, the experience might have been easy to take for granted. But just to be able to do this thing, and further build up the relationship with my dad through the lens of this project, while also getting something really interesting and sort of energizing out of it, has been a really big plus.
Plus the amount of access that we got just seems like such a privilege to have been able to talk with these folks and see their places of work.
Or, like, we did this interview with one of the world’s most prominent dinosaur toy collectors. That whole trip was just such an experience. Like, here’s a guy that we absolutely never would have met under any other context and we’re hanging out in his house in Arkansas and looking at 6,000 or whatever dinosaur toys. That’s so far beyond the scope of what I thought I would ever be seeing. Those are the moments that stick out the most to me.
James Pinto interviewing paleontologist Jessica Lippincott
I know exactly what you’re talking about when it comes to getting to meet some unexpected people in this world. You guys are a prime example of that. I would’ve never had the opportunity to have this conversation with you both if it wasn’t for Dinosaur Trips. So I want to thank you for sharing your experiences of putting this really cool documentary together, and for taking the time to chat with me about it. I can’t wait for more people to get to see the film.
Tony: Thank you. We are hopeful that we can continue to make connections and get the movie out there. It’s kind of become our mission to bring people into museums, put them face-to-face with working scientists and science communicators, and inspire future scientists. There’s just such great people in the paleo community and we’re trying to help them all meet one another and find opportunities while celebrating their love for dinosaurs together. We’re also accepting screening invitations from museums, science centers, universities, STEM clubs, etc., and looking for sponsors for our upcoming PBS broadcast. We can be reached via the web site: www.whydinosaurs.com.
Keep up the great work with Dinosaur Trips. Who knows, maybe we’ll join you out in the world some day.
Why Dinosaurs? is coming to museums, PBS, and streaming this year. Find out where you can see it at www.whydinosaurs.com/watch
